Forum

Michael.

I agree with what you say about statistics - in fact I made that very point when mentioning the growth in league teams in the last 2 years.

My point was you left out ALL the positives and growth areas therefore your conclusions are imbalanced.

Your research has uncovered 4 Cricket Ureland articles. I did not defend cricket Ireland. My challenge was to ask you to justify the accusation of Bullsh*t peddling against local officials - ie the NCU. Your response fails to address that. Put up your evidence against me and my colleagues or withdraw that unpleasant accusation.

One of the few common themes running through the posts on the state of cricket seems to be "finished by 6pm". I think if that was addressed the number of overs etc would become less significant.
If you allow four minutes per over and half an hour for tea then simply work back the start times depending on the number of overs deemed for that league.
I personally think the overs are about right at each level. I think teas are important in that it's a chance to catch up with teammates what they have been up to during the week or a chance to think how you are going to approach the second half of the game.
So 50 over game would start at 10.50am , 40 over game at 12.10pm , a 35 over game at 12.50pm and a 30 over game at 1.30pm.
Overs reduced immediately and subsequently for every 8 minutes lost down to a minimum of 20 overs.
Or alternatively if all cricket started at say 10.45am then the 50 over game would end at 5.55pm , the 40 over game at 4.35pm , the 35 over game at 3.55pm and the 30 over game at 3.15pm.
If cricket was played within those hours I think there would be less clamour for shorter games etc. I know one of the most frequent questions asked of me was " what time will I be home at?" Even the biggest travel distances in the NCU a player or spectator in a senior team could be home by 7.30pm
Another advantage of having a uniform start time is if they wish the junior teams can get back and see the last hour or so of a senior game helping with the atmosphere but also learn by watching .
I think the early start times ( guaranteed with no hanging around because of rain ) you would get a greater participation of both youth and adults and quickly see more teams emerge and an end to "walkovers".
I speak as someone who played at senior level for twenty years and then captained in the Junior Leagues at 2nds, 3rds and 4ths for another 20 years so I have heard all the reasons from my own experiences and those of opposition captains.
The " elephant in the room" is schools cricket on a Saturday. This is driven by a team of well respected , well meaning cricket lovers but surely it's time to sit down with them and explain " you are killing the game you claim to love".
You can introduce children to cricket at school , coach them and provide them with games WITHOUT playing on a Saturday morning. There are many fine cricketers playing senior cricket today ( 25th July) who never played Saturday cricket at school. Of the 350 people playing 1sts cricket in the NCU today how many played cricket at school on a Saturday morning ? There's a stat for Michael and Neale to get a grip on . I'm sure most of the captains could quickly go down their scorecard and give you that answer.
Antrim Grammar introduced Saturday cricket in 2014 and because of shortage of teachers a few of us at Muckamore agreed to umpire. I umpired two under 13 games and just know that none of the 22 players could say they got a lot of fun from that 2 hours. In one game the second innings chasing 18 lasted 7 balls. In the one game I umpired this season there were 57 wides ( and those were only the ones that didn't bounce on the mat ) . Now if I had been doing what I needed to do ( stop, point out little things etc ) those games would have lasted for a good three hours and that would still only been papering over the cracks.
Schools are important in the development of any sport and with more cooperation between club and school I think we will produce more quality players. This cooperation could start with the dropping of Saturday school cricket and an agreed commitment from each club to reach out in terms of coaches going in to local,schools.
There's enough money paid to overseas players it should be a pre requisite that they do 3 hours a day five days a week in local schools for 8 weeks . Clubs have students or retired people or people who are self employed or on flexitime who could give up,a few hours to help,coach in schools.
Michael's stats paint a bleak picture and I'll accept that stats can be manipulated to suit the story but those of us who have been closely involved know that Michael's picture is a pretty accurate one in relation to what's happening on the ground .
It needs fixed and I for one can't see how playing shorter games or regionalising the game helps except to delay "grasping the nettle " about Saturday schools cricket. I know there will be passionate pleas about the role it had played in the past etc etc but the evidence isn't there to say it has a role to play in today's society .NCU numbers are in decline in male adult cricket. We are seeing more end more withdrawals and walkovers. We aren't producing internationals in the region. The last Ulster players to be capped McBrine, Thompson, Young - how much Saturday school cricket did they play ? The Ulster representatives in the latest under 19 World Cup qualifiers - Dennison, Mitchell, Gillespie and the two McClintocks - how much Saturday school cricket did they play ?
If the answer is what I think it is then it proves the clubs and the Unions can produce players .
If at the AGM this October it was announced that all cricket would start at 10.45am and the cut off even in 50 over games was 6pm I think by the times teams are registered by the end of November that we would see an increase in the teams playing.
We have tinkered with everything else but we haven't "grasped the nettle " on starting and finishing times. Why NOT AT LEAST TRY. and I know there are "optional by agreement " flexibility built in at present. That doesn't work all the time so set the starting times in stone, reduce the overs from 10.45am onwards and have a definitive finishing time based on 4 minutes for an over . Then players , partners, fans, umpires, scorers, media people can plan their social and family time without cricket interrupting those plans. I speak as someone who played schools cricket on a Saturday for five years and looked forward to getting picked up at the school gates to go and play another game but today's adults don't want to be getting home at 8.30pm or later so they stop playing and school kids suffer with no club cricket.

Terry,
Your last two sentences sum it up. That's exactly where we all want to be.

Neale,

Thank you for your reply.

On cherry-picking statistics, I would argue that every statistic is arbitrary in the first place, and every statistic that is employed is necessarily cherry-picked. All counter-arguments are therefore open to the same accusation.

Would the use of a word other than 'bullshit' have detracted from the substance of the article? No. Would the use of another word have been more diplomatic? Almost certainly. But has the use of the word 'bullshit' grabbed attention and provoked debate on matters about which everybody should be concerned? Yes.

Even so, here are a few explanatory citations:

‘The impressive growth of cricket in Ireland…Cricket is the fasting-growing sport in Ireland’, [http://northerncricketunion.org/database/2015/news/articles/article613.shtml]

‘The rapidly-growing popularity of cricket in Ireland is showing no signs of slowing down.' [http://www.cricketireland.ie/news/article/cricket-continues-growth-across-ireland, 9 April 2013]

‘Cricket – which is now the fastest growing sport in Ireland’, [http://www.cricketireland.ie/extra-cover/article/nothing-short-of-inspirational, 19 November 2013].

‘The Union began to receive increased funding...from the Irish public purse and from the commercial sector, confirming the growth of the sport among key stakeholders’, [http://www.cricketireland.ie/about/history]

These lines, merely a few that I found during ninety seconds of research, bear no relation to what I - and others - have been witnessing within the sport over the last few years,

Michael

the decline in cricket in england where i played league cricket for twenty years in 2013 908.000 played in 2014 it dropped to 844.000 the number of matches conceded because teams could not muster 11 players stood at 5 percent now in the birmingham league they play 55 overs aside a lot of guys who are good enough to play saturday cricket are opting to play parks cricket at twenty overs aside an initiative from the ecb is to introduce an u19 league is to be introduced to help teenagers to make the leap from youth to adult cricket the ecb was put on notice by sport england that it risked losing £27.5 million in government funding for the period 2013 to 2017 if participation levels do not increase so taking that into consideration the ncu is doing quite well considering we have no chance of ever getting funding like that if the so called good and great in english cricket cant manage put that into perspective and realise there is always someone worse off lol I am not taking any credit for this article because it was wrote by nick hoult the cricket correspondent for the telegraph and he has somehow managed to write it in such a way that he hasnt offended any unpaid officials that give up their time for free and also without profanity just remember mt if you give it you are also liable in your priveleged position to take the criticism we are not in intensive care just recuperating so the funeral has been postponed indefinitely haha. on another point its saturday the forecast is good lets all enjoy and good luck to everyone playing at whatever level because thats the whole idea of the beautiful game ps look forwards and dont dwell on the past

Lots of sensible discussion and then Mark goes and suggests we get rid of the teas! I think we can stop talk of that now!

We seem to have got very bogged down in blaming young people and alcohol for a lot of this alleged death of the local game.
I've played a large amount of games this season at second and third eleven where the majority of players have been youths. I played away at Downpatrick 2s a few weeks ago, two fairly young teams, a decent game, majority stayed for a drink afterwards (something which I miss and seems to be getting rarer these days too!) and everyone was happy because we were back home for not too far after 6, at most there's a few going out afterwards, not the entire team the way you'd expect from the suggestions you read sometimes.

I've gave Neale my views on the regional idea before, I believe it's a handy way out for the late finishes rather than sitting down and properly sorting something out with the schools and getting early starts all year. Give most of those school boys the option I'd imagine they'd all rather only be playing one game on a Saturday and one some other day of the week than trying to squeeze in well over 100 overs in one day! I also imagine there's bound to be some level of player management/welfare issue in there somewhere.

As well as start times I think it'd be worth starting the season a few weeks earlier, as it is we're starting the last week of April, 6 weeks of exams, 2 weeks on holiday, very few games over the twelfth and you're well over half way into the season and kids are saying what's the point if I haven't played before now. Start week 2 of April, get a few games in and give them something to look forward to getting back into. It'd also create a few more playing dates to prevent all the double headers complained about.

RE: Michael Taylor's latest article.

The article on the Strange Death of NCU cricket appears to have provoked a genuine debate on the position and future of NCU cricket and as the Director of Domestic Cricket for the NCU I am delighted. Over the last number of years we have been trying to find innovative and constructive ways to halt the decline in particularly male adult participation this is an ongoing and developing process and the contribution of cricket players, officials and lovers of the game is refreshing.

As readers will be aware the NCU has put great time and effort into road shows to keep clubs informed and to take their views, to develop this into policy and to bring this policies forward into proposals at the AGM.
As a result the leagues have been restructured; starting times partially addressed; length of matches changed in accordance with the wishes of the clubs etc.

In the debate that is currently ongoing I would also ask for consideration of the 'regionalisation' of the lower tier of the junior leagues. Earlier this year the NCU set out a document suggesting that the bottom 4 leagues be regionalised - the idea to reduce time spent traveling in order to preserve the time spent playing and keep players available. Club responses were limited and a small majority against. This flew in the face of on the ground evidence of the fixtures meetings when team captains were almost universally in favour and the players (often from clubs that officially were not in favour) asking why regionalisation has not gone ahead.

Having praised the effect of Michael's article, I do have a significant number of difficulties with same - from the cherry picking of the statistics to make a point, to the failure to take into account any contra-indicative data which might undermine the point being made. But most of all the use of the privileged position of a feature writer for CE to take a cheap shot at local officials as "bullsh*t" pedlars makes for a good headline or attention grabber. However when attacking an easily identified individual or small group especially from a privileged platform then remember you may be require to back it up. So:-
1. Who are these "bullsh*t" peddling local officials?
2. What is it they said ?
3. In what way was it "bullsh*t?

I certainly have not been saying everything in the garden is rosey, and we do not give up many hours every month on a completely free basis because cricket is fine and flourishing. We do it, in the main, to keep the game which we love going and hopefully improving against the background of countless and growing pressures some of which Michael has identified.

Statistics are always open to interpretation - I see we have had a 2% increase in adult teams in the league in the last 2 years and down less than 1% over the last 13! Does this include the midweek league which had grown?

On the amount of cricket the numerous new cup competitions have not been included. T20s; Ulster Trophies; Second tier All Ireland; Women's Premier League and cups; inter pros.

On numbers the growth of women's cricket has been ignored or forgotten about. My wife assures me that they are people and often adults too. She is a doctor and very bright so I take her word for it.

In summary, we have to move with the times to survive. Nobody in the NCU as far as I am concerned is peddling "bullsh*t" in this regard. We welcome debate, ideas and fresh thinking. The old idea of gin swilling Blazers living in the past is an outdated concept used by individuals and journalists living in the past. The NCU may make mistakes or the wrong call on any given issue but we are not complacent.

Michael your articles are a breath of fresh air - Times not Sun. With a sense of humour which ranges from subtle to sledge hammer when required. I genuinely look forward to reading them for their both entertaining and thought provoking content. Keep them coming.

Jordan Wilson . Proper " attitude" .

I read all this stuff and try and think " why is Muckamore different? " . It's NOT. We field 5 teams ( and can do so on the same day if needed) , we field three Midweek teams on a Wednesday night and we get 50 odd at practice and we have a lot of the guys playing also involved in coaching underage teams .
Michael's article makes depressing reading. So why are Muckamore totally " bucking the trend ".
Simple - because we decided to get off our backside and make cricket for the masses. A team pulled out of the midweek league. Andy Clement rang Charlie Henderson , Charlie made a few phone calls having said " Yes we will get a third Midweek team together " and within the same day he had a captain and a squad organised .
The one thing Antrim hasn't had for years was schools cricket on a Saturday. We encourage people to take the game up in their thirties , it is part of the DNA handed down by Billy Boyd, Geoff Wallace, John McCormick , Harry McFaadden that you play back down the club . Of the many good things I have seen at Moylena in the past few years one of the most satisfying was this season seeing Simon Thompson a Senior player of many years playing on the back pitch with the thirds. " simply putting back to the club what an earlier generation had done for him".
Players at Muckamore have wives and girlfriends and kids. However they are part of what Neil Gill christened #themuckamorefamily.
If you want cricket to die - talk it down - if you want cricket to grow - open the gates , put the fliers around the town , go ask 50 ex players to come back and if 5 say yes there's quickly another team.
Stop blaming Cricket Ireland , NCU , drinking , other sports etc. Muckamore are good at drinking , we have loads of junior football in Antrim, we have a rugby club, a long established hockey club, a GAA club, three golf courses, marching bands etc . If I listened to the people on here Muckamore should have folded by now.
Cricket isn't dead at Carrick , it's not dead at Armagh , Waringstown to name but a few. Yes you might have to work harder but like anything in life " it's your attitude " that determines most things. Charlie Henderson could have said " sure we already have two midweek teams and left it like that " . His "attutude" said different .
Please don't read this as " Muckamore are wonderful because we are NOT " we just have a good attutude about the future of the game. Aaron's suggestion of starting J4 and below later in the season will kill the game . At clubs like ours schoolboys aren't playing schools cricket and the adults want to get started last week in April otherwise they go to other sports and we lose them. Play more - not less.
PS the Muckamore Casuals are in the semi Final of the Midweek League.

Have the bye-laws on consumpton of booze changed?

When I was running about last orders weren't called to 11pm and many's an alehouse or club that I frequented weren't to punctual about it shouting out loud....boys-a-boys such a 'nanny state' we are becoming !!!!

in regards to Sam...
I'm (Aged 20) currently playing in Junior 1 with CSN. I like the 50 over games. I think it has you prepared for that step up into senior cricket as there is a huge difference in concentration required between 40 overs and 50 overs. Therefore I wouldn't change this at all.
Earlier start times being implemented now is making a difference, getting finished at 7:30 or 8pm was too late but starting now at 11, and being finished for 6 or so, means the younger players have their socialising time too after the game. Surely there can be a way in which this happens throughout the year, and school cricket maybe gets moved to Friday evenings rather than Saturday mornings. Just a thought.

Sam

The same old argument applies to Junior 1 as 6 out of the 8 teams are premier league clubs, so where premier league clubs are thriving this no doubt will have a knock on effect to the 2nd xi teams. Outside of that the junior leagues are by far a worse standard than say 10 or 15 years ago and it is these clubs who are struggling with participation.

didn't mean to start off this debate - as I posted "I'm only saying"!. To change tack a bit I was at Lord's last weekend and was thrilled by the lunch entertainment by the Band of the Royal Marines. I see that CI have arranged the entertainment for the sponsors at the Australia game - fiddler Adam!! Say no more!!

I believe that the restructuring of the junior leagues has put a new breath if life into cricket outside of 1xi.

What about a poll.

Would a representative for each club in junior one indicate on this forum if they would be for or against reducing max duration of league matches to 40 overs ?

To pick up on a couple of points. Like Taito I had school and club cricket practices during the week, u15 club games on a Friday, school on a Saturday morning and club on a Saturday afternoon. I have to say there ARE still guys like this who will play anywhere and have an appetite for cricket and will play school team, club u15s, 2nd XI and midweek all in the same week. We need to encourage them and nurture that.

I think we need to get the clubs and schools together. I fully agree that I developed my love of cricket through my younger years at school and there needs to be a place for school cricket. But taking Clarence's point on compromise do we need to rejig things?

School cricket to continue as is in schools forms 1-4. Keep the McCullough cup format as it is for these years. These players will mostly be players on your clubs 3s/4s (or in junior leagues 4 and below). Start the fixtures for J4 and below later in the year.

School 1st and 2nd XI cricket restricted to the Schools Cups and played during the week. This frees up your better cricketers to play club 1st and 2nd XI cricket meaning you can start the fixtures as currently at end of April/early May and allows these games to start at 11am from the outset of the season.