Forum

Re: Bruce Topping – league changes

Good to see some feasible suggestions regarding possible changes in the league structure. I would agree entirely with Bruce's view that the status quo is not working and clubs need to agree to changes.

I thought it was time to put forward the view from Section 4. I appreciate that because of the poor weather this summer, most clubs are having difficulty in completing their programme of fixtures. However clubs in Sections 1-3 are lucky in that they have fixtures scheduled for each weekend over the season from the outset. Because of the small number of teams in Section 4, these clubs do not have regular matches each week.

A look at the up-to-date Section 4 league shows that only 6 teams remain in this league.
This is because:
1) Indian Gymkhana withdrew (again) just before the season started - how many more times will the NCU permit this? This deprived clubs of 2 scheduled Saturday matches.
2) PSNI have now either withdrawn from the league or been expelled because they have forfeited too many matches (as in 2005). This is no surprise as on May 17th they failed to fulfil their Junior Cup match with Drumaness and have forfeited all matches arranged since 14th June.

With the 2up 2down system, teams in Sections 1,2 and 3 rarely play a match where the result is not important. This cannot be said for Section 4 matches. Another look at the league shows how many matches have not taken place due to one of the clubs failing to field a team. Of the matches PSNI have played this year, some were played with 9 or 10 players. Clogher have also forfeited a match this year, their longest away trip to Donaghadee.

8 games is the most any team has played. Ards and Donaghadee have only played 6 over the whole season! Another curious anomaly is that Section 4 clubs’ 2nd XI teams have more fixtures to complete than their 1st XI?? Does this seem right?

In 2004 Section 4 had 9 teams and regular matches. In recent years with the decrease in the size of the league due to the appearance and disappearance of Shorts, East Belfast, Newry and Mourne, IGCC and PSNI, former Section 3 clubs such as Portadown, Ards and Donaghadee have all suffered with players moving to other clubs in search of regular cricket or losing interest entirely in cricket. All of these teams are desperate to return to Section 3 knowing that they would be guaranteed regular cricket and more chance of attracting new / returning players to their clubs.

Bruce Topping’s suggestion of 8 teams in Section 1, 9 in Section 2, 10 in Section 3 and 8+ in Section 4 depending on the existence of Cliftonville and PSNI seems a step in the right direction.
The NCU seems either unaware of the situation in this league or perhaps unwilling to do anything about it. Unless changes are made, clubs in this league will continue to lose players to other clubs and their survival must be in doubt.

Michael
I would suggest that in the NCU an hour after a game you could count on one hand the number of players still in the bar at a majority of clubs.
Nile.
I think your comment is typical of someone who is totally out of touch with the game and the problems fielding teams at club level. No where on here did I ever suggest that we disband school cricket. Just move it to a Friday afternnon .And as far as coaching is concerned I think a lot of this is done in the schools by club coaches. I think the response from our club members tells us how they feel.Surely we need to listen to those playing the game not those standing on the sidelines.
Chris.
I appreciate what you say but unless the NCU clubs make a stand we will have half a dozen schools driving more and more older guys away from the game . Luckily enough in my day at Ballyclare High the teachers realized that for people like myself, Andy Gleghorne, Nigel Simpson and John Millar playing for Muckamore was important. Most weeks we were collected from the school in our whites to play a club game.

Duckworth/Lewis is better than run rates. We should use D/L for match 1 if enough of the game is played for a result and a 20 over match for match 2. It's about time we thought about sharing points after that. For example instead of 2 points each you could have 1 each for a no result.

Re Billy Pollock

As somebody who was involved within playing school cricket recently for Ballyclare High(I left school in 2005)perhaps I can shed some light its current state.
You generally turned up on a Saturday morning at a rugby pitch which had an artificial mat plonked in the middle, these varied vastly in quality- there really are some awful school grounds (obviously with the few exceptions of RBAI, Campbell Coll etc) Then the game (a 20 over bash)commenced, taking the form of "our three best players vs their three best players"- generally there would have been at least 5 people who couldn't bat or bowl to any sort of decent standard meaning that the same 5 people would bowl their full allotted overs and bat in the top 5- something I hope we don't get in any of the NCU leagues! The game would end with a flurry of rash shots as people tried to get away to catch a lift to their club game- often fielding teams might bowl the last three or four overs with 8 or 9 men.
I take the point that there are many who get alot out of these games who may not be interested in club cricket, however those who take their cricket seriously get very little out of these matches. I am all for school cricket and I had some great times playing it but I think the time is right now for it to be switched to a Wednesday afternoon so as not to clash with club games, this would also allow it to be taken much more seriously by the players- because at the minute it is far from being a top priority.

Just read more negative comments about schools cricket and wondered why we all dismiss their Saturday morning cricket so negatively. I'm sure there are many pupils and teachers giving a lot every Saturday morning and I'm sure there are plenty of pupils who are not attached to clubs but still enjoy the sport. I know times have changed but it's not all about clubs and it would be good to hear some comments from the pupils and the schools on these matters. The less cricket played the more it will decline and that's nothing to do with the weather.

Bruce,
If some senior teams have only 8 league games and one cup game they might as well fold. This won't develop cricket and finishing the season in early August is throwing in the towel at the rain. The real issue we need to deal with is what happens if a match is rained off? Should it be replayed or scrapped? Should there be no more points or shared points? Should there is a short mid week game or nothing?
All this relates to bad weather but two seasons ago we had good weather and everything went OK. Let's be more positive.

I see it has started already...the rumour mill!
Playing leaving and players arriving, but as usual nothing to substantiate any of it. The North West gossips are best at it (probably because more players move around there) but let's put a ban on website gossip until at least February as it all sounds like clocking hens sitting around the camp fire.

RE: Another suggestion for league structure for section 2.

Split the league into 2 groups of 5 teams (top 5 seeded so they are not all in one group). Play home and away. That would be 8 mathces per team. Then have playoffs between the groups. (ie the winners of each group play each other to decide who wins the league etc. (toss for home advantage)

Top two promoted.

Teams finishing 5th in their group play for 9th and 10th. Bottom team relegated. team finishing 9th has playoff against second team from section 3.

That would be nine matches per side (except for team finishing 9th.) This would mean the league could be finished by early August.

The rest of August and early September could be filled by a 20/20 competiton based on similar league structure

Re: Bruce Topping

I think that you are right about the Armagh v Laurelvale game. I had just glanced at the tables to see which games may be effected. I had seen that Charles McCrum came on late in the game and bowled 10 overs but only 2 bowlers bowled 10 and so that seems fine.

I understand that only 4 games are affected.

Not sure if the Dundrum v Ballymena has been declared void as yet. Only 2 balls bowled over the allocation here but still against the rules.

I had previously understood that if a game was declared void it could not be replayed.

Some good suggestions from Bruce and Charles regarding reduction of games. The North West idea of a quick mid week rearrangement 20 overs per side is a good one. Teams would then perhaps have one training session that week and play a game. It would not be as disruptive. If the game could not be played then it would be a "no result." No need for Duckworth Lewis. I understand that for all international cricket there is a Duckworth Lewis expert on the end of a phone line ready to provide a ruling if one is required. As Charles says maybe we are complicating things a bit. If Duckworth Lewis is abandoned will clubs be reimbursed for shelling out good money on computers etc???

Also don't see any reason why the mid week game should not be played on a mat if it is too wet to play on grass, surely anything to get a result?

Like Ivan I would also be all in favour of an 11.00 am start. Cricket in schools can be accomodated during the school week. Those at school who play senior club cricket will learn a good deal more about the game at their club.

Gordon,
Not disputing other Leinster teams come to the party but the comment was based on North County winning the league four out of the past five years (2003-6) and two cup final appearances (one win) in the same period. They have also won the DGM League this season and lost the cup final to Clontarf. That's pretty dominant even before you add five Irish Senior Cup wins. However, I acknowledge Clontarf and Railway have had their successes as well.
Ed

If schools give up playing matches would they not give up coaching cricket too? I was introduced to cricket at school not at a club. Don't we need more schools playing cricket not fewer?

Editor

"North County continual dominance of leinster cricket". You will find that Clontarf won the league and cup last year. They have won the cup this year. North County are very much worthy champions of the Irish senior cup, but such is the strength in Dublin other teams come to the party.

Congratulations to North County on a fine win.

Re Early Start of Games

Ivan while personally I would be all for an early start I don't see it happening. There is no doubt that you have 'hit the nail on the head' in saying that school cricket is meaningless (possibly aside from the schools cup) however, try telling the school teachers that. I think that if we did start earlier it would just mean many clubs playing without the best players on a Saturday with pupils forced to represent their school team regardless of what level they play at their club- certainly I would think Ballyclare High would take that attitude with many of our players. This could lead to many kids finding other things to do on a Saturday afternoon and we may lose them forever. I agree that something has to be done, even since I have started playing about 6 years ago the dramatic decline in numbers and general interest from young people has been astonishing and I think much of the reason for that is the fact that cricket is an all day sport, however finding a solution that suits all parties will be far from easy.

RE : Tim Browne

I have just found out that Laurelvale's away match with Ballymena has to be replayed. As far as I am aware the Armagh game does not need to replayed as it was within the rules. (ie the game was reduced to 47 overs which means two bowlers from each side were permitted to bowl 10 overs each.

I see this has now been reflected in the latest "official" league table together with the "no results" over the weekend.

It would now be interesting to see the latest net run rate tables for section 2.

Ivan, I think your poll is as accurate as you'll get as everyone has had it with the weather this season and the early starts has been around for some time. Finishing at 5-30 or 6-30 hardly matters as most of the teams end up in the bar afterwards anyway so it might increase bar sales. The NW 20 overs midweek re-arrangement is also a good suggestion.